Sure, I’m a Webdesigner! I Have Dreamweaver!
I have had several discussions lately with some friends of mine in regards to ‘web design’ and development. Some were discussions from my previous post where I said there was literally no one in a 20 mile radius of where I live that understands web design or development. I still stand by that, and boldly. I could cite many examples of the horrendous quality of their work, but I will leave that for another discussion. Sure, there are print designers who picked up a WYSIWG and then started marketing their ‘web design’, there are even those that took an HTML course at the local college branch who now want to start their business, or even students in high school doing the same. Their prices are ridiculous in comparison with their quality. So how is it they can survive?
Knowledge of the Web and its Environment
It is the blind leading the blind. I always hear “Well, the client wanted it this way…” or “The client really liked the way this was done…” — and that is it, that is the rationalization behind their lack of knowledge for building things improperly. If you are a professional web developer, then it is your job to also educate the client on what works and what doesn’t work. The problem? The ‘web designers’ don’t know themselves what works and what doesn’t work. The result? Many poorly built sites that do absolutely nothing but sit there — stagnant.
I was reading a post on the Google blog in regards to search engine optimization and abuse. There were many good points made throughout the discussion. One specific piece that stuck out to me was this:
“You can say this forever, but webdesigners won’t listen. They will just continue making very beautiful designs, that load slow (but not on their 2 megabit connection), use images where they should use H1, and if they can they will do the whole site in flash.”
And the response:
“I agree with what you’re saying here, however I feel I have to jump to the defence of web designers or, more specifically, the correct use of terminology.
A web designer is, quite simply, someone who designs websites and the design of a website takes into consideration a plethora of factors and most prominently usability and accessibility (I’m sure I never spell those two words correctly, though I might have got it right this time!).
Those who make fancy shiny flashy sites are more on graphic artist scale — they just want something that looks nice. This does not count as web design as such websites, quite frankly, are not designed but just created. Graphic designers are a fraction better as these are people who design graphical bits and bobs whilst taking the time to consider the importance of each bob and bit.
Sadly the term ‘web designer’ has generally come to be accepted as someone who makes websites.
To paraphrase some wise words (from whom I don’t recall), making a website is easy, designing one is a completed different kettle of phish. Or something like that.
Nevertheless, what you are saying is very true.”
“You do not want to do an entire site in Flash for the same reason you do not want to do an entire site using image maps. To me, it shows a failure to understand the true nature of the Web and a demonstrates a level of amateurism.”
The beauty of Open Source
This couldn’t be any more fitting to describe the ‘web designers’ around this area. What’s worse is when they discover open source and now consider themselves programmers. They find a script that Jonny put online the other day, and install/use it in a production environment without ever considering the implications or security aspects. After all, it’s what the client wanted — and thats reason enough. Need a contact form? Sure, I saw one of those the other day on Devshed? Need a newsletter script? Sure — got one of those too! Need an upload area? Yep — saw that on a website the other day too. Member logins? You betcha! It’s simple, just download the source files and make a few changes — perfect! Or…
A recent blog post says it perfectly
“PHP is another sore spot for me. I’ve gotten to the point that not only will I not write PHP code, I won’t even run applications written in PHP (my long search for decent blogging software was due to the restriction that it not be written in PHP). At some level PHP is a great language because the entry cost is so low. Not so much because the language is so particularly friendly, but because it was designed to work in an extremely simple environment (the web) and because it’s quite possible to learn PHP incrementally by intermixing it with HTML. So what’s the problem? Well, first of all, as anyone who’s done much web programming will tell you, mixing code with markup is *not* a good thing if you care about maintenance or extensibility. The very thing that makes PHP a great language for beginners is the very thing that makes it a bad language for beginners. At some point they will have to unlearn those habits, except that usually they don’t. Also, because it’s so easy to whip out a quick PHP webapp, many, if not most, PHP programmers fail to delve very deep into the realm of programming, preferring to sit at the edge and reap the benefits without the work (I’m not talking about coding work, rather the work of understanding your field). PHP programmers practically popularized the most common attack in the world, the SQL-injection attack. Not only is it the most common, it’s the most easily avoided. That’s how shallow most PHP programmer’s knowledge is.”
I have found myself even reporting many of the vulnerabilities to some of the local companies (see Reporting Vulnerabilities by Chris Shiflett). Some will respond with gratitude and even request help. Other may simply ignore it. Others may take offense to it. But the truth is, this is very poor development and is only putting the client at risk. So, while I love the community behind open source — I believe its also what has made PHP to be called a poor programming language, because people who have no clue what they are doing just pick from a hodge podge of scripts to use on their site (or worse, production sites for clients). They are what I like to refer to as script kiddies. They have no understanding of SQL injection, Header injection, Session hijacking, XSS, CSRF, or the configuration options behind securing a script on different server setups (especially shared hosting). And yet again, these people can make money from a client. Why? Because it is the blind leading the blind. The designer doesn’t know, but convinces the client that it will work. The client, faithfully, trusts the ‘web designer’ and will continue to work with them.
The Building Process
I get the most chuckle from discussions surrounding this area. The ‘designers’ I talk to are absolutely clueless (see above referenced Google post). Around here, the popular methods are:
- Microsoft FrontPage
- Adobe GoLive
- Macromedia Dreamweaver
- {insert random page builder from hosting company}
Now, of the above listed I would say that Dreamweaver is the lesser of the evils. The real problem comes when its a complete reliance on the WYSIWYG to build and maintain a website. Have you ever seen the crap spit out by FrontPage? How about the crap spit out by GoLive? Try just validating the HTML on pages with this — it’s ugly. It mashes everything together, inline Javascript, inline CSS (poorly constructed — topic for another post), and anything else someone throws into it. Its just plain ugly. The process is usually:
- Create a sketch in Photoshop or Fireworks.
- Use the export options to export the images (if they even slice them).
- Import into program of choice (see above) and try and make it all fit together (This is where use of Frames or Image Maps come in).
- They make sure it looks good in a few browsers.
- They hand it over to the client and take their ridiculous amount of money for doing nothing.
- The client suffers from a poorly built website.
- Client doesn’t know any better, so they still come back for more work — never bothering to ask about analytics or traffic. (In the cases they do ask for traffic, the ‘designer’ feeds them the hits from the Webalizer and rationalizes the traffic).
- Crappy websites exist all over the place.
Why? This is my main question. Why is that with web development, no one takes the time to learn or live up to standards? They have no understanding, they have no training, they have no experience — but yet they can continue to sell poorly built websites.
In Conclusion
I could continue with this discussion, but this post has reached a long length already. I will leave you with another quote from the Google discussion:
“Maybe you should tell that to the 100% Flash website crowd. I can’t seem to get them to listen.”
And the response…
“That’s because they’re permanently deafened from the sound of silence caused by lack of traffic to their websites”
Though I will not give specific examples here, I can give some tangible proof to those who are seeking more information. Also, though there are mentions to validation above — understand that there is much more that goes into creating a usable and accesible website than just passing one validation.
49 Comments Add your comment
Greg Vennerholm June 7th, 2006
Fantastic post, Nate. As a designer from the print world, this same happened with the advent of "desktop publishing." Before too long, everyone had PageMaker (or name your page layout app) and - poof - everyone's a "Designer." The craft that is design, which is all about information design as it relates to communication, slowly erroded into the abyss of in-house (usually by untrained, multiple-hat wearing office workers) personel producing the materials themselves. Oh, thank heaven for Avery and Paper Direct and their "professinoally designed" materials...
I say all of this to get to this point: as tools work their way into the hands of untrained practitioners, mayhem is bound to ensue. I use Dreamweaver for my work, though lately, I've been blessed to be able to leave the development to professionals, while I stick to doing what I'm best at: design.
Nate Klaiber June 10th, 2006
Greg,
I used to do design and freelance development - and it took longer for me to focus on the design and nail that down, then put my programming cap on to construct/organize everything. I love where I am now because I can leave the design to the designers. I work with some friends at Clear Function and it is a perfect match. They do great work, and give it to me in just the format I need to construct/program a back end. Im able to stick to my strong points versus trying to get it all done myself.
This isnt necessarily a bash on dreamweaver - I used it for quite a few years. Its a GREAT tool - when used properly. But in the hands of the wrong people, it can still put out garbage. Again, thats not the programs fault - its the users fault. Its just like all the programming language debates. ANY programming language can be hideous or perform poorly in the wrong hands.
People just dont want to take the time to learn to do things right. Theres such a heavy reliance on the tools that they forget to use their brain sometimes.
Felix Geisendorfer June 22nd, 2006
What a great, great and let me repeat, great post. I really had a good laugh at several points and a feeling of guilt at some others.
I've never used Dreamweaver for anything but syntax highlighting nor have I used any other WYSIWYG editor for Html, Css, or Js creation. I've also started learning php by reverse-engineering some big forum scripts and started to roll my own templating system right away. It wasn't all that great and most of the code was pretty bad, but at least I started by trying to apply the right patterns from the beginning (not that I *really* knew why at this point, but I thought they do it so it must be good).
However, I've done my share of poor table layouts and also worked with a couple of libraries I should have investigated a little closer. I also followed the clients request on things I'd never have done on my free will, because I thought that is what you have to live with when you are paid for your work.
The thing I liked most about your post is that one of the jobs of a web developer should be to educate clients. It's not an easy thing to do and you might loose one or the other job through it, but those will be the jobs you don't want to do anyway because you'd have to work and follow the blind just like you said.
Many thanks for this inspirational piece of writing,
Felix Geisendorfer
Nate Klaiber June 22nd, 2006
RE: Felix
Thank you for your kind words! When I first learned PHP it was much of the same techniques. I didnt just copy/paste and try and use myself, I played with the guts of different applications and investigated WHY and WHAT things were happening. There were many things I DIDNT know then, that I do know now (some of which I laugh at myself - but this was 5 years ago).
I actually ran into this the other day talking with someone. They said 'I tried to sell them on CSS, but they didnt like the typeface.' My response: You should have tried harder. You see, there was no educating on WHY CSS should be used (and it can be used with images) - problem was the person selling the CSS didnt know what he was selling in the first place and therefore the client wins. It is a sad state when this happens, especially when we are professionals.
Education is key - both FOR us (I am learning new things everyday), and for the client. Why is it we expect other professions to have education, but expect so little from this profession?
Again, thank you for your kind words and I am glad you enjoyed the article!
Peace,
Nate
Felix Geisendorfer June 22nd, 2006
Hey Nate,
thanks for your quick reply. There are still a lot of things I need to learn to become a better web developer as well, but I think the most difficult and important thing so far has been to say no to clients.
I recently had a guy that wanted me to implement an ajax upload progress bar I developed and gotten on digg.com with for a reasonable price. But with every e-mail we exchanged he tried to add new features to his initial request without raising the price. So at one point I just told him that I won't do it for less then $-xxx, and this was the last time I heard from him.
Now that's been a very obvious situation where it's the right thing to say no, but it's a lot more difficult when you are trying to tell a client why you will not work for the same price as somebody who uses table design and free php snippets. It's just not easy to tell him, as a non-tech person, why he's going the wrong way when he looks for the cheap stuff.
And once you start doing those badly paid projects it's difficult to keep up with your good habbits, because you'll have to do lot's of projects to make money, and deadlines are toxic for code quality. So finally you'll end up with tons of work, little recognition and web development will become a major pain to you and you'll not pay attention to the details any longer. It's just so easy to get in into this circle, and propably takes lot's of no's and braveness to get out of it again.
In case you are interested, I've had a little post on my blog about the xhtml/css discussion recently and there were a couple of good arguments for standards design in it:
http://www.thinkingphp.org/2006/06/08/question-why-should-you-stick-to-web-standards/
I've also posted a link to this article of yours today, so my readers can enjoy reading it as well ; ).
Best Greetings from Germany,
Felix
Spencer Hoyt June 27th, 2006
Amen!
I have these problems on a daily basis. Glad to hear someone finally vocalized it.
Chris June 27th, 2006
Wow, a very nice post that I very much enjoyed reading.
I apologize in advance for this post: I'm not quite sure how to write what I am trying to communicate, so try and stick with me. And, just to note, this post is only a page long. Don't let it intimidate you.
So that things make sense, I might as well say I am both a PHP programmer (and various other languages) and web designer (which, after reading your blog post, isn't saying very much. I actually have a little story about someone recently accusing me of not being a programmer. Turned out, I knew more than he did.)
I took some thought into what you said about script kiddies. First off, I think it's totally true what you said about them. They don't know anything about security and other problems. I was definitely one, unaware of these security "risks." Partly because it was assumed there were no security issues, and partly because others didn't seem to worry about such things either, and so I didn't either. (I don't mean to shift the blame to others. I was definitely part of the problem, too.)
Before I took on any programming, I started out learning HTML on my own, viewing the source code of people's websites. Overtime, I discovered CSS and started using that, too. (If I may borrow your line segment, Nate:) Literally everyone within a 20 mile radius thought raw/hand coding websites was "disgusting," and everyone instead resorted to Dreamweaver. Soon enough, people realized I was "right" and followed my lead. Except my lead ran me under several tables: HTML tables. I've been through several other twists and turns, in and out traps, and I'm right where I am today, considering myself a "decent" web designer.
I think the path I took (and that I am still taking) through web design was the correct path, whereas the path I took when I started PHP programming was the wrong path to begin with. But now I think I've finally found my way to the PHP yellow brick road.
How did I go right with web design? I ignored the WYSIWYG route. How did I go wrong with PHP programming? I was being guided by the blind with my eyes closed, until I finally opened my eyes.
There is one more thing I wanted to contribute. What you said in your reply to Greg about how it was better for you to work on one single thing rather than juggling all tasks for a project. I think the "one person does all" stuff is partially what is dragging web design down. If we work in teams, we might be able to accomplish our tasks more successfully. This seems obvious, but it's more than worthy to note. I usually end up doing everything on my own, and some of what I am not good at and don't enjoy doing, I have to do.
I've also found, as everyone probably already knows, teams are more efficient. Ever tried programming with someone else at the same computer? I'll use some PHP software I created with someone else as an example, called the Quate CMS. For about two weeks, a member of the Quate team and I, with one laptop, started programming everything together. When we worked on the CMS together, I was able to do some things very well, and he was able to do the things he was good at, such as scripting a server (rather than client-side) dependant login script necessary for the CMS administrator panel. I learned from that, and he learned from me. When we ran into code errors, the other person who didn't code it usually found the problem. Best part of all, we were freely able to communicate our ideas.
Jason June 28th, 2006
So - this actually has nothing to do with Dreamweaver? As you yourself said, "The real problem comes when its a COMPLETE reliance on the WYSIWYG to build/maintain a website."
Dreamweaver is just a tool, like the others you mentioned. It isn't a "method", no moreso than any of the other tools you mentioned. Like any tool, it can be misused, but your gripes have little or nothing to do with the quality of the tool you so spectacularly (and unfairly) mention in your headline.
Troll article.
Brian June 28th, 2006
I find it interestug that you bash on crappy web designers who grab open source code and slap on crappy designs and call it a website, yet you are running Wordpress with the default theme. Call me crazy, but shouldn't you have at least done a bit more of a custom design yourself before whining that everyone else isn't as l33t as you?
I'm a web designer and programmer myself and I agree with what you've said, but you should at least take the time to practice what you preach, especially on the blog that you preach about it. Otherwise, you are just killing your own credibility.
Matt June 28th, 2006
You bring up some pretty good points... good post, I wish more people thought this way.
Speaking of design.. I like your site design :P
tom June 28th, 2006
geez, I hear this comment every three years or so and I've been in the new media biz since the late 80's. All I can say is, get off you designers high horse, and build sites that work for people, not for your personal esthetic values. :) have a nice day. Love Tom Tom
toxicle June 28th, 2006
Nice post but not too sure about your design :)
Corey June 28th, 2006
I really agree with what you are saying. Now starting out I used Frontpage, but that caused me to get into web design more and now I am in college taking classses. So I think it is good for people to learn from, but you should never ever try to sell the crap you made.
K.J. June 28th, 2006
Talk about ironic... Here you are bashing people for using pre-made scripts (which you incorrectly call script kiddies--script kiddies are people that use pre-made scripts to hack) and you run your blog using WordPress! An open source php framework... Haha, that made me laugh out loud. Seriously, haha.
DaNiel June 28th, 2006
You could AT LEAST skin Wordpress if you're so good...
jean-luke June 28th, 2006
and now it's ajax and all of the rss feeds used but especailly abused of... omg it's getting so complicated, slow, bulky, annoying, unsurfable. And think about it this way:
the most visited website has one image that loads in a second, one input box, two buttons, a couple of text links and "2006 Google" and EVERYVODY LOVES IT!
mamluk June 28th, 2006
Reading this post, I got the feeling that the author felt threatened and upset at the competition from the Frontpage-type web designers. If you can design well enough, you shouldn't have to worry about those sorts of designers. Lose the obnoxiously arrogant tone and focus your frustration on marketing your superior design ability.
It seems you think of yourself as a 5 star chef in a land of fast food restaurants lamenting the lack of business because Big Macs satisfy most people.
Most of the clients who will be aware of the issues and concerns you bring up will be large enough to have their own web design staff.
And who cares if you are the best designer in 20 miles? This strange thing called the Internet makes many of the traditional boundaries that separated businesses moot.
Why don't you make a claim worth having, like I am in the top 20 web designers in the world? Of course, that just shows how silly making claims like that are.
As somone else mentioned, I find it ironic that this was posted on a site using the generic wordpress theme. Why don't you take the chance to show your design skills?
Gogela June 28th, 2006
Database driven sites are not my forte, so generally anytime I’m designing a website I’m working collaboratively with a database designer and an application developer as well. The major disconnect I keep running into is programmers who are frustrated with their own design ineptitude, and try to compensate for this shortcoming by pretending that because they have a more thorough understanding of the mechanics behind the site, they are the de-facto user interface expert. I think each person on the project team needs to stick with what they know. Using table layouts and image maps is not the mark of a talented designer. That’s just purely ignorant, and it confuses the foolish opportunists with what I think is an interesting point in your post about a ‘disconnect’ between the ‘designers’ and the programmers. A good designer understands why sites need to be standards compliant— that the ability for the site to change and grow as needed by keeping data and design XML compliant always comes back to save you at some point down the road— hell it does this even during the initial design phase. However, few and far between are the individuals who are proficient in both design and programming. In my experience, the best work happens when everyone on your team focuses on communication, and (this is the most important part) everyone acknowledges that they are not the expert on everything.
I’ve been on development teams where the head programmer was dictating design. Every time that has happened, the site ends up looking like a total abortion, and we have to start the whole thing over. If you want to be a usability expert— read a damn usability study! There’s a tone of them on the net, and every time you read a new one you will learn something, no matter what kind of expert you think you are. Learn as much as you can about every aspect of the project, but don’t let it go to your head. You’re not ‘smarter’ because you work in Dreamweaver and another guy works in notepad. The notepad guy can do it because he dreams in html.
One final note: some guy getting all his friends to boost his plug on dig so he can give the world design advice while using the Wordpress default template is tacky. Just FYI.
ghostcat June 28th, 2006
You take valid points and make them invalid through your pompousness. I don't like restating things others have already stated, but you are using wordpress with the default theme. By your own definition, you aren't a web designer, and therefore have no business trying to pass yourself off as one. I hate it when crap like this gets on Digg's front page. Useless drivel.
Dobe June 28th, 2006
The design of this site and the use of an open source script is irrelevant.
The point is that user are spewing out broken code and unsecure sites all over the place. The real problem however is not simply the use of the the above mentioned applications to design site. Those applications used correctly validate just fine, I have validated pages from all of those programs before, just fyi. The real problem is that most browsers DO NOT adhere to W3C coding standards, and thus users are forced to find horrific unvalidating ways to achieve the design goal they set forth. Sure you can complain all you want, but until cross browser compliance is up to par then you are just farting in the wind and trying to solve a problem by attacking symptoms.
Lastly, you lose almost all crediability in my book for one simple reason, and its not because you are indeed using wordpress, but because you use blanket statments across the board. I have more then a clue and the fact is I have been working in open source development and site design for more then a few years. I could be just about as Audacious and say that "As far as I'm concerned a developer could make a site design that has the right look and feel as much as a one legged man in an ass kicking contest could win, well an ass kicking contest." However we all know that it will not apply to all developers, just like it dosn't apply to all designers. You need to seriously think about using DRAFTS before you post something live.
Matthew June 28th, 2006
Thats exactly why I refuse to do any webdesign or web development until my knowledge of all the components I'm going to be used is good enough to be able to handle telling a client what is best for them. The first website I put together for a client is http://riversidegrove-bastrop.org and thats not my design, but the client liked it and it is a very nice design, some elements of the page needed to be changed but other than that, it was fine. I was not paid and didnt plan on getting paid because it was a student project that the home owners association did. You should always go in prepared, and if the client is saying they want something because "so-and-so" has it, explain to them why they have it and whether or not it would work for them. Just because something looks pretty doesnt mean its right for you, its about functionality and usability! I burnt a FrontPage book a lot time ago because I didnt want anyone to use that piece of junk, and regardless of how easy a WYSIWYG editor is to make a website, I like to know what is underneath and to understand what is going on. Like you said, you should know about your industry.
Wayne June 28th, 2006
I totally agree. I was always frustrated when doing freelance when I would have to compete price-wise against those types of "designers". I did my best to try to explain to the client *why* my prices were higher - because of the quality of the underlying code, ease of maintainability, proper security, etc - and some clients did "get it", but more often than not, I found myself losing clients to Frontpage designers who had run a Photoshop mockup through an HTML generator.
It's why I went back to working in a corporate environment where at least I know that my skills are required and appreciated instead of looked at as "extraneous cost"
Chris June 28th, 2006
I disagree with the PHP statements as I've scripted in PHP only for 6 months now but am aware of SQL injection attacks and the like. I would agree that this is probably not something they bring up in a class about PHP, but it is something every responsible coder should know. Good article though. Stresses "design" over simply building a site. However it all comes down to what the user wants and what they're willing to pay for. I'm not going to spend hours of my time listing their site in google if they're not willing to pay for it.
Andy Melton June 28th, 2006
I realized a while back that I was finally going to have to give up relying on tables and the WYSIWYG environment of Dreamweaver. I use to think that the code environment was a very scary place. Now that I have started to actually use it instead of the Designer environment, I prefer it. The only time I ever use the Design environment is to do a quick preview of the page I am working on.
The problem I have right now is that I've only got one site on my portfolio that demonstrates the use of no tables! I'm working on it though!
So, you don't like PHP? I've not learned how to program PHP yet, I guess you would consider me a script kiddie, lol. The only knowledge of PHP I have at the moment is from my use of content management systems. If not PHP, what would you recommend? It just seems to me that PHP is what everyone in the market is looking for.
Another problem that we've got and one that I was most certainly a victim of is this: When I was in high school (I graduated in 2003), we were taught to do web design first by hand coding HTML and then once we learned that we were allowed to use the WYSIWYG environment to do editing.
Thanks for posting this article, it helps keep me in check whenever I see an article like this...which we don't often see!
Nick June 28th, 2006
shame your website's totally borked in IE6 (only about 80% mkt share still)
koan June 28th, 2006
(forgive my bad English, please)
You're absolutely right but this is not new: I design websites since 1996 and I always had to fight against the so-called "web designers" you're talking about... But IMHO the worst problem is that clients are completely ignorant and they're only listening to their mallet with no interest on anything else.
The cheaper the better, that's the point... You can fill your mouth with "accessibility", "usability", "web standards" but if a colleague is 1$ cheaper you'll be sure he gonna do the job at your place.
That's the reason because in Italy (where I live) there are plenty of good designers (Brain Box, Tokidoki, Mirko Pasqualini, etc.) but also plenty of really ugly and unreadable websites even if built by important agencies...
Simply buy a copy of Computer Arts with Adobe demos, download a crack and voila: you're a web designer. Your PC/Mac will do the rest.
I don't know if it's the same anywhere, I hope not, but this is what we feel in Italy and I assure you I can't see the light at the end of this tunnel... :(
I'm very lucky because during these years I've found 4-5 agencies usually hiring me for jobs all concerned by web standards etc. or interested in being educated by me on what's really good for them, but they're really few those who can say the same. :((
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to write here. See ya.
Ben Davies June 28th, 2006
Great article. The blind leading the blind indeed! I've found that it basically comes down to the type of designer you are: if your designing to please the client, your wrong. If your designing for the clients target audience, your right. Design is an objective, empirical discipline. If you think you know "what looks good", I'm afraid you only know "what looks good TO YOU". Countless times I've spent arguing with "web designers" that validating code, accessability, good URLs and content negotiation is a mandatory requirement, and that Flash, missing ALT tags on images and huge, pointless images are counter productive to what we are trying to acheive for the client!
If I see another table based layout or style calls named "redlink" I'm gonna scream!
In the end though, ALL our clients come to us because they've been burned before by Cowboy bedroom web designers. I thought these ametures might cause damage to the industry after the bubble burst, but in reality, I've found that our clients are a lot wiser now, and actually, willing to spend serious money on getting it right.
So dont fret. Stay professional, keep on top of your game and let the cowboys have the crumbs. They'll only drive their customers to you anyway, and you'll be amazed how much clients will listen to you after being burned!
Ben Davies June 28th, 2006
Oh, and in defence of the author: using a Wordpress blog with a default template.
The use of Wordpress and the default template requires no more design that is necessary in order to acheive the task at had, namely publishing a blog, which this obviously acheives. You people who are slating him for this are missing the point. What you argue is that as he hasnt redesigned the layout/colour scheme/added AJAX crap everywhere thie author is not a competent designer. Your WRONG.
The use of Wordpress with a default template illustrates his point, and your rebuttles merely highlight you dont understand the point.
mathyoo June 28th, 2006
While I agree with some of the article here, some of it is elitist crap. There are many ways to build effective website, and many different clients with many different needs and desires. Not every clients needs an AJAX site, and they certainly don't want to pay for the programming. Many of my smaller clients really only need a brochureware site, and it's ridiculous to try to sell them on a dynamic site with all sorts of backend development when they don't need it.
on top of that, sometimes it IS the clients fault, and no amount of "education" will convince them that they're clueless. I do both print and web work, and a new client of mine went somewhere else for his web work because I tried to talk him out of an all-Flash site, and some other designer who's portfolio is full of bloated all-Flash sites designed for DJ's and bands got the job. What can you do then?
Designers who design to please themselves or their clients are a problem, that's for sure, but so are web developers who call themselves designers. They may know how to code a site, but they don't know squat about typography, color theory, readability, hierarchy of information, grids, and most importantly-messaging. I don't care how well-coded your site is, if you don't have your messaging on target, people are going to leave. The average consumer doesn't really care whether a site is standards-compliant. They're looking for information, and presenting the right information in the right way will always be the key to good design. Sure, the backend development is important to ensure that the site looks good on all browsers and works correctly, and it's fantastic when a site can incorporate kick-ass functionality and actually DO something, but not every client needs, wants, or can afford that.
Grant June 28th, 2006
You're bashing PHP for being able to put business with presentation? You can do the same thing with .NET and Java frameworks. Same with most other languages (Perl, Ruby, Python, etc..). It's still, however, quite possible to (easily) implement a MVC design in PHP.
Get off your high horse.
Rob June 28th, 2006
A few good points relayed poorly. This article could have been a good resource for those (of us, perhaps) who are looking to better themselves professionally. Instead it's a vent article with decent points diluted by snide jabs at the "blind". The article would have been much more insightful if resources or other useful links were included to help those who were maybe looking forward to an intelligent comment on a difficult field. A few quotes from google does little in this regard.
Your comments on the problem don't sound like they're coming from a professional. I agree with Dobe's statement above (especially in the age of Digg, et al), "You need to seriously think about using DRAFTS before you post something live."
codebrew June 28th, 2006
I agree with most of you comments.
What I find frustrating is most of the 'flash' type websites that appear on the web are as a result of a 'flashy' sales pitch. Let's face it, the really pretty, graphic, fancy web pages are an easy sell to the average corporate types you are presenting to. It's like the crack cocaine of the internet.
Often I am never asked anything about security or cross browser compatibility when trying to win a customer. To them all they see is a fancy pretty website. They don't care that it takes full minutes to load on a dial-up connection.
I think therefore that many web developers simply 'give in' and do what the client wants even when they know that's not what's best for the client. It's the old adage of giving the customer what they want (which is seems to me is rarely what then really need).
I believe that education is the key but as my grandpa used to say "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it pee."
Silvano June 28th, 2006
Great post indeed! Who have never worked directly with HTML doesn't have a clue of why you are saying those words (you can see plenty of this people in the comments above). I've had problems myself with 'dreamweaver-web-designers'. I simply hate when I get HTML pages from the "web designer" and I need to remove all the useless information they don't even know is there. Sometimes I have to rebuild the whole code. It sucks! Hopefully it's not worst as Word HTML pages :) And for those who are looking for something to say you are wrong and they found out that you are using WordPress, I have some words. I use blogger.com and with a predefined template. I work with PHP and I've heard people complaints about why I'm using blogger and default template if "I'm so good". The focus of my blog are the WORDS it has. I needed an easy way to publish my thoughts and I don't have time to or don't want to reinvent the wheel. And it has nothing to do with my skills. I'm quite sure that Nate is using it as is for the same reason. ps- portuguese speaker here. If you have any problem with my English please let me know :)
dillon June 28th, 2006
While you made some good points, it just comes across as a lot of whining.
Guess what? Welcome to the world we live in - true craftsmen are perceived as unnecessary in about a hundred other fields too. Everyone can get decent photos with a relatively inexpensive digital camera. Home DV cameras deliver quality on par with equipment that pros spend thousands of dollars on a few years ago. Some one else mentioned the desktop publishing revolution from few years ago. Part of it is that technology has made many things easy enough that an average person can do decent work - part of it is a that we live in a disposable society where quick, cheap and good enough are more highly valued than more expensive, truly high quality things that you have to wait for.
I can see both sides, but the bottom line is that the difference between what a professional web designer, graphic designer, photographer, video engineer, etc can do and what an amatuer can do is not noticable anymore by a lot of people, and a chunk of those that can tell the difference don't value it as much. Your world is different today that it was yesterday - deal with it. Nobody feels bad for the blacksmith's who were left without work when cars took over.
Christopher June 28th, 2006
Nate,
Good points. Though, I would love to have seen you draw a distinction between "web designer" and "web developer." I consider myself a designer rather than a developer.
Oh, and ignore all the digg idiots.
Michael June 28th, 2006
excellent post. 10/10 score for this rant. to the haters. your just pissed 'cause Nate's got you pegged and you feel guilty for knowingly conning poeple out ouf their hard-earned money.
but, at least you feel guilty so, i'll take that as evidence that you still cling to a smidge of humanity.
:D
fusi June 28th, 2006
you really hit the nail on the head there Nate. i used to work for someone exactly like this. we had a row about this very subject and i left. thank god.
and to those people slating Nate for using wordpress on this site: grow up - it performs the required function - its not about what you use but about what you know and how you apply it to what you do.
ignorance is not an excuse for incompetance.
Matt June 28th, 2006
Interesting point of view; quite comical since your entire site is WordPress. But in all seriousness, a designer/developer/whatever can't rely on just one program, but they can use a program like Dreamweaver primarily just so long as they don't spend 100% of the time in design view. I'm not saying that the html used is perfect, but run it through a validator, check to make sure things look ok in browsers, educate your client and there should be no problem. I spoke with a person that didn't want to pay a large fee for a site; they decided to use a company with a template based design... a year later the person comes back to me. Professional looking is ok, but you need to realize you can still have a professional site customized a bit rather than just relying solely on, for this example I'll use WordPress. Be unique, if it doesn't work then it's time to redesign.
Alex Ries June 29th, 2006
I think it's a very good post and it points out alot of the problems you see in webdevelopment today.
I myself a programmer am on a different spectrum concerning PHP rather than being troubled by people building vulnerable web applications I find would-be-actual-programmers taking their PHP habits into the C and Java world. I myself code in PHP for my webapps due to it's wide implementation as opposed to JSP and ASP, that is ofcourse on the side of the smaller bussinesses. On that note I'd like to point out how very few of the bigger corporate websites out there make use of PHP.
Also on the note of the 100% flash sites; I think that webdevelopers should come to terms with this phenomenon. Yes I agree that it's not the best of practices, but flash CAN actually be maintainable and DESIRED as well. Ofcourse a site made in flash should not really be used in 99% of the cases, but I think that people like 'artists' might benefit from a flash website displaying their skills. Think of all those sites made for the sole purpose of introducing a movie or a series. I wouldn't really do that in HTML only with all the animations and what not. I think that a 100% flash site is more of an advertisement than a real website perhaps. Yet in the eyes of most: "If it's on the web, it's a website."
On a final note, I think that poor webdesigners will keep on existing, maybe even thrive. However I believe that it's due to the nature of 'the web' and it's the same nature which started all of this webdesign stuff in the first place. Wanting to turn the web in a place where only websites exists that have been made 'the right way' is like trying to rid the world of hunger: Very noble, but it can't be done.
kevin June 29th, 2006
This point and counter point thumping of the chest is laughable. I hear you guys talking about tools and validation as if they are as important as providing tangible results for your clients and getting paid.
You may have perfectly valid code, in web 2.no, with no tables, all CSS, coded by hand and still not provide ROI for your client. Why, because many of you do not know jack about sales and marketing. By some of your definitions this means you should stop selling your services immediately until you can learn and understand that aspect of web development/design.
Some of you are also guilty of an equal or greater offence of not talking to your clients about matching their collateral, not maintaining their brand cohesion, and not creating actionable sites that tie in with their overall marketing efforts.
Please note the use of ‘many’ & ‘some’ as this is not a sweeping statement.
I’ll use Frontpage, Dreamweaver, notepad, cold fusion, php, .net, AJAX, flash (albeit only supporting items) or whatever the heck it will take to created and display a demographic targeted, SEO optimized, actionable, brand cohesive, and good looking site that gets me PAID!
Yeah.. I do this for a living to pay the bills, and I have been doing so for 7 years. I have been PAID to do over 100 sites, some of which have won local advertising awards, which means exactly squat because every day I have to learn a little more. I didn’t even like one of the designs I won for, but it was correct for the demographic, the client, and the elitist designers ate it up.
I have lost deals to guys charging almost nothing, to nephews, friends, and hacks. It’s called business.
I can’t wait to earn a living until after I know it all. Do you know it all? Are you saying you don’t look back on some sites and think, damn I wish I would have done that different? A lot has changed in 7 years, I can tell you that. Whew—I’m done.
deev June 29th, 2006
Nicely summised Kevin tbh, pretty much took the words out my mouth ... your last points the real clincher though, it's all relative.
I've been the dreameaver whore, least 2 images for each nav item ... no idea what swopped them (though i did know to hand code a table) n I thought it was great until a mate introduced me to css.
All my clients sites are now hand coded at least xhtml/css valid n mostly AA ... they really don't care, but I do it anyway.
It's easy to say "stop your all doing it wrong" but if the "sighted" never show the blind the way, they will knock about in the dark forever.
Steven Woods July 1st, 2006
Hehe @ this site not working in Internet Explorer .... doesn't WordPress usually work out of the box on IE?
Has the "web designer" been tinkering a bit? Tut Tut!
Good article, though a little pretentious.
I have one point to add, directly to you: why are you whining so much about beginners? Are they taking money out of your hands? Are you struggling to find work? If so, you might perhaps like to think about why that is. Part of being a professional is being able to promote yourself using your subject knowledge - if all you do is piss and moan, lesser skilled (but more sociable people) will get work ... who wants to work with a whiner?
Alex Ries July 1st, 2006
It's funny however how people seem to be in someway insulted by this article. I'm sure they just had their own stupidity made visible to them and they just can't take it.
Also why start a blog if you have nothing to piss and moan about?
punkster July 1st, 2006
First, there is a difference between a web designer and web developer. This is where the problem lies. Both groups want to claim they are both. Sure a few are good at both, but most are not. For a designer Dreamweaver is simply faster when a client is paying you pennies. Clients don't care about clean code, neither do surfers usually.
When an industry is unregulated and there is no licensure, then it is a free for all. You know how many "web designers" that "suck" complain about other "web designers" that "suck"? Quite a bit. Not saying you suck, but your web site is pretty damn unimpressive.
Nate Klaiber July 1st, 2006
First off, in response to:
"Way to be cool and moderate comments— very cool— can’t defend your points?"
I was gone on vacation, I didn't have to moderate the comments - you used fackinspam@gmail.com and expected it to get through? At least man up and put your name and real link. Until then, it's a troll post and I'll leave it in the garbage.
I responded on digg as well, and I will post that eventually - but to sum a few things up:
1. Thank you for all of the comments, even the haters. I obviously didn't communicate everything as I would have liked (that's the nature of the digital age). I have thick skin - and I appreciate those who put thought into their responses, even if it was a stab at me.
2. I love PHP - use it in projects all of the time. I wasn't bashing the language, I was bashing the misuse of tools. This is not specific to PHP - but every other language as well.
3. I agree with kevin in a quote above about needing to understand marketing and ROI when developing sites. You make a very interesting point that I will discuss later.
4. Yes, this is the default wordpress theme - no modifications, so Im not sure whats happening in IE. A new design is coming in the very near future, I had other priorities that had to take the front seat for a while - therefore I just used this to blog. To those who bash that it's wordpress - I think you very much missed the point of the 'rant' above. Has nothing to do with free scripts or open source being used, it has EVERYTHING to do with how/when they are used.
5. I have NO idea how this article made it to Digg, but I can assure you it wasn't from anyone I know. I am not starving for traffic that I need to boost it with digg. I am on digg every day and am very well aware of it's effects and some of the users who post. And, as I said above. I have been gone since last thursday - with no communication with anyone (I was on an island in Canada - no electricity or phone). I just wanted to clear that up.
6. I am not a freelance designer/developer - so I am not losing jobs to anyone. I work full time for a publishing company as a web developer/programmer. This post was not a rant geared towards losing jobs to anyone.
7. I will moderate some comments due to trolls. If you have something to say (As above) - be a man, post up your name and a link/email. If you can't do that, your comments aren't worth my time. Are you trying to hide something? I welcome intelligent conversation - even some of the haters at least posted their name/email/url.
Ill respond more later, but I do appreciate all of the comments.
Peace,
nate
James Benson July 16th, 2006
Long but great read I must say.
Adam October 10th, 2006
Just wanted to say I fell into this post by mistake looking for some CMS vs Dreamweaver comparisons. I enjoyed it and alot of it made sense to me. You're not from our company with an alias are you? :))
Our company is having the same problem that you get frustrated with.
We design for colleges and largish companies and encourage them to understand accessibility. We make sure all of our sites are accessible, taking into account, browser type, resolutions, graphics on, graphics off, text only, jscript on/off, text size tiny, labels on forms, titles, alternative text, text size massive, database design and efficiency checking etc... Everything to make sure anyone can use their site regardless of system or disability. We do this because we know it matters, even if 90% of those things, the client doesn't even realise are there.
We lose out alot to inhouse marketing/IT departments who only care about the fact that the site needs to be blue and green and there has to be something flashing somewhere. Nobody fully realises the complexity of "DESIGNING" a website. Some will choose a completely flash-based website because "aww the text is wobbling" forgetting the fact that they are a Specialist School and most of their users with text-only browsers won't see anything when there isn't even an alternative text version.
Like you say, anyone can stick an image on a page and put some text on it and say they can design websites. That's why when I say I'm a Web Developer it sort of makes my heart sink because I know the title doesn't really justify the amount of work I actually put into a website. At the same time someone with the same title is copying and pasting code from 60 different open source areas without a clue about the true objective.
Web Designer, Web Developer... same thing.
We can put our own ideas of what the difference is but "Develope" and "Design" appear in the same Thesaurus category where ever you go
:)
Anyway,
I agree with everything you say.
You'll find the only people who do are the proper Web Developers :)
Take Care,
Adam
Andy Carlos November 20th, 2007
I'm surprised at how many people entirely failed to understand even a single point that this post made.
Nate Klaiber November 20th, 2007
@Andy Carlos
This post made it to digg.com shortly after it's birth. The majority of comments are from people who didn't actually read the above article - but had to make a comment anyway. Dare I say, the typical digg crowd - comment before reading.